[Humanist] 24.528 even further on Oedipus

Humanist Discussion Group willard.mccarty at mccarty.org.uk
Sun Nov 28 10:09:02 CET 2010


                 Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 24, No. 528.
         Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
                       www.digitalhumanities.org/humanist
                Submit to: humanist at lists.digitalhumanities.org

  [1]   From:    Jascha Kessler <urim1 at verizon.net>                       (146)
        Subject: Re: [Humanist] 24.524 further on Oedipus

  [2]   From:    Jascha Kessler <urim1 at verizon.net>                        (92)
        Subject: Re: [Humanist] 24.524 further on Oedipus

  [3]   From:    Jascha Kessler <urim1 at verizon.net>                       (168)
        Subject: Re: [Humanist] 24.524 further on Oedipus


--[1]------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 13:17:07 -0800
        From: Jascha Kessler <urim1 at verizon.net>
        Subject: Re: [Humanist] 24.524 further on Oedipus
        In-Reply-To: <20101127085410.02A50B136B at woodward.joyent.us>


More to Barbas' exposition.  Laius was condemned by the three great female
deities for having "introduced pederasty to Greece." Trace the problem back
to Chrysippus' mother, who was "married" to her father, who was himself
condemned for that crime by the same Triad [excluding Zeus of the
Apollonians].  He promised to relinquish her to the first man who could
defeat him in a chariot race.  Theseus, I think it was, the 12th or 13th
[this is ritual calendricals] to venture, bribed the grooms the night before
to loosen the bindings of the chariot wheel of her incestuous father the
King, who crashed and was dispatched by Theseus.  Cunning Greek, what?
 [Which may go far back to the annual vegetation sacrifice of the king in
the woods of Frazer] but has its analogues, today among certain African
tribes, or one in particular, who place adolescent boy and girl in  trench,
copulating face to face, and let a prepared tree fall to crush them to
death.] The Sophoclean tale was surely not unknown to his audience.  If it
is the subtext, it suggests of course that Oedipus is the fall guy, the
patsy, not, as he says, put upon after having saved Thebes from the Sphinx.
 As to that monster...it may be the case the Velikovsky ruminated over but
did not dare to suggest.  How it got past Akhenaton and down a millennium
and more is the mystery or puzzle or question.
What follows from all that mythic mess of a family line of incestous insults
to the Great Three is a skeptical view of the misprision perpetrated by
contemporary Feminists who take up the heroic piety of Antigone in defending
her brother's corpse.  From the perspective suggested above, her brothers
were in the wrong to attempt the Ruler's overthrow, that of Jocasta's
brother, called Creon [or Boss, let us say].  The whole subject may be a
capsule presentation of the long and continuing struggle of patriarchal
males against their Mothers, the goddesses who make us all safe for our
first 9 months' refuge from this Real World.  Akenaton, so much the subject
of praise for his solar god and especially by Art Historians and curators
for the strange distortions of his image, so different from realistic
portraiture, as though they were precursors of Picasso, which they were, but
were not, seems to have been the Oedipus whose form was distorted by
Morphan's Syndrome.  His father Amenhotep III, a great hunter of lions from
the chariot, many dozens he boasted, took to wearing female dress in his
later years.  Precursor of Laius?  And his powerful, long-lived wife Tiy
took over, having sent the infant away to 20 years' exile with the Mitanni,
took over from his mother and her ancient priest advisor [Tiresias?] and
moved the whole shebang, taxes and temples and all, away from the ancientest
city of kings and priests.  [Ancient Tieresis himself, fleeing from the
attackers of Thebes later led by Oedipus' sons, died of a drink of
freezingly cold water from a famous fountain.  Fountains are not
administered by Apollonians, but nymphs under divine tutelage.  What does
that legend really say?  And why does Tiresias refuse to divulge the truth
when called back to Thebes?  He knows what went on decades earlier of course
when that killing of Theseus's wife's father was made, rather
ritualistically, as was mentioned above.
At any rate, Oedipus is a good serious fellow.
And further to Laius, Apollo's oracle is the Delfic priestess, the
Pythonesse.  The Apollonians took that affair over, and that was a long
struggle before then.  No wonder Laius is killed on the way back to hear a
new fate: the goddesses dont forgive or forget.  They bring the blight of
infertility that is announced completely in Scene I, when the priest,
surrounded by children, the last generation of Thebes, makes his plea to
Oedipus for help.  That Laius was a sinner against them is obvious: no
children born after to him after he has his wife dispose of Oedipus...he
dare not kill him...and yet from that mature woman Oedipus has delivered to
him four children.  It is matriarchal, Thebes.  Oedipus, going away blinded,
requests of Creon that he nurture his girls; as for the boys, he says they
can take care of themselves.  True to form, they later assault
Thebes...Apollonians all.
Interesting, what?
Jescha Kessler

On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Humanist Discussion Group <
willard.mccarty at mccarty.org.uk> wrote:

>
>                 Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 24, No. 524.
>         Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
>                       www.digitalhumanities.org/humanist
>                Submit to: humanist at lists.digitalhumanities.org
>
>  [1]   From:    Gerda Elata-Alster <gerda at bgu.ac.il>
>  (10)
>        Subject: Re: [Humanist] 24.521 further on Oedipus
>
>  [2]   From:    "Helena Barbas" <hebarbas at fcsh.unl.pt>
>  (26)
>        Subject: RE: [Humanist] 24.521 further on Oedipus
>
>
>
> --[1]------------------------------------------------------------------------
>        Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 14:20:12 +0200
>        From: Gerda Elata-Alster <gerda at bgu.ac.il>
>        Subject: Re: [Humanist] 24.521 further on Oedipus
>
> Dear Jascha Kessler,
>
> re: further on Oedipus
>
> I must have missed (by mistake erased) your earlier comment.
>
> If it's not too much trouble, could you please resend it.
>
> We then could perhaps engage in a conversation on the topic of  the 'use'
> of
> humanities for humankind.
>
> Gerda Elata-Alster, Ben Gurion University of the Negev
>
>
>
> --[2]------------------------------------------------------------------------
>        Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 15:53:05 -0000
>        From: "Helena Barbas" <hebarbas at fcsh.unl.pt>
>        Subject: RE: [Humanist] 24.521 further on Oedipus
>        In-Reply-To: <20101126094257.967BAB18E2 at woodward.joyent.us>
>
> Dear Jascha Kessler
>
> I've not translated Oedipus, but have been giving it in my classes for the
> last 20 years (together with Aristotle), and each time find something new
> (in both). The thing that has struck me this year is that Oedipus is
> himself
> the victim of his father's hubris; Laius is the first not to believe in
> Apollo's oracle; he is the first to shed the family blood when piercing
> Oedipus feet. Laius had other sins upon himself - against hospitality and
> marriage (the abduction and raping of Chrysippus i.e.). You don't need to
> invoke the Old Testament, the Greek working up of the Erinyes upon family
> blood shedding would be enough - it started to make me much more sense from
> this perspective.
>
> Best of lucks to your book
> Helena Barbas
>
> Helena Barbas (PhD)
> Universidade Nova de Lisboa
> Faculdade de Ciências Sociais e Humanas
> Departamento de Estudos Portugueses
>  (Bloco 1 - Gab.b)
> Av. de Berna 26-C, 1069-061
> Lisboa – Portugal
> URL: http://www.helenabarbas.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> List posts to: humanist at lists.digitalhumanities.org
> List info and archives at at: http://digitalhumanities.org/humanist
> Listmember interface at:
> http://digitalhumanities.org/humanist/Restricted/listmember_interface.php
> Subscribe at:
> http://www.digitalhumanities.org/humanist/membership_form.php

-- 
Jascha Kessler
Professor of English & Modern Literature, UCLA
Telephone/Facsimile: 310.393.4648
www.jfkessler.com
www.xlibris.com



--[2]------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 13:21:45 -0800
        From: Jascha Kessler <urim1 at verizon.net>
        Subject: Re: [Humanist] 24.524 further on Oedipus
        In-Reply-To: <20101127085410.02A50B136B at woodward.joyent.us>


A PS, if I may. I did not intend to invoke the OT, by the way.  To this day,
however, there is complete uncertainty about the strange sacrifice of
Jephtha's daughter, which occurred almost at the same time, or century or
era as the sacrifice of his daughter by Agamemnon, for a fair wind to Troy,
where those Greek men were in pursuit of a famous woman [or statue? or
icon?]  The parallel is suggestive. Especially if one considers the lineage
of Jephtha.  Another subject, but also about matriarchy perhaps.
Jascha Kessler

On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Humanist Discussion Group <
willard.mccarty at mccarty.org.uk> wrote:

>
>                 Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 24, No. 524.
>         Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
>                       www.digitalhumanities.org/humanist
>                Submit to: humanist at lists.digitalhumanities.org
>
>  [1]   From:    Gerda Elata-Alster <gerda at bgu.ac.il>
>  (10)
>        Subject: Re: [Humanist] 24.521 further on Oedipus
>
>  [2]   From:    "Helena Barbas" <hebarbas at fcsh.unl.pt>
>  (26)
>        Subject: RE: [Humanist] 24.521 further on Oedipus
>
>
>
> --[1]------------------------------------------------------------------------
>        Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 14:20:12 +0200
>        From: Gerda Elata-Alster <gerda at bgu.ac.il>
>        Subject: Re: [Humanist] 24.521 further on Oedipus
>
> Dear Jascha Kessler,
>
> re: further on Oedipus
>
> I must have missed (by mistake erased) your earlier comment.
>
> If it's not too much trouble, could you please resend it.
>
> We then could perhaps engage in a conversation on the topic of  the 'use'
> of
> humanities for humankind.
>
> Gerda Elata-Alster, Ben Gurion University of the Negev
>
>
>
> --[2]------------------------------------------------------------------------
>        Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 15:53:05 -0000
>        From: "Helena Barbas" <hebarbas at fcsh.unl.pt>
>        Subject: RE: [Humanist] 24.521 further on Oedipus
>        In-Reply-To: <20101126094257.967BAB18E2 at woodward.joyent.us>
>
> Dear Jascha Kessler
>
> I've not translated Oedipus, but have been giving it in my classes for the
> last 20 years (together with Aristotle), and each time find something new
> (in both). The thing that has struck me this year is that Oedipus is
> himself
> the victim of his father's hubris; Laius is the first not to believe in
> Apollo's oracle; he is the first to shed the family blood when piercing
> Oedipus feet. Laius had other sins upon himself - against hospitality and
> marriage (the abduction and raping of Chrysippus i.e.). You don't need to
> invoke the Old Testament, the Greek working up of the Erinyes upon family
> blood shedding would be enough - it started to make me much more sense from
> this perspective.
>
> Best of lucks to your book
> Helena Barbas
>
> Helena Barbas (PhD)
> Universidade Nova de Lisboa
> Faculdade de Ciências Sociais e Humanas
> Departamento de Estudos Portugueses
>  (Bloco 1 - Gab.b)
> Av. de Berna 26-C, 1069-061
> Lisboa – Portugal
> URL: http://www.helenabarbas.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> List posts to: humanist at lists.digitalhumanities.org
> List info and archives at at: http://digitalhumanities.org/humanist
> Listmember interface at:
> http://digitalhumanities.org/humanist/Restricted/listmember_interface.php
> Subscribe at:
> http://www.digitalhumanities.org/humanist/membership_form.php

-- 
Jascha Kessler
Professor of English & Modern Literature, UCLA
Telephone/Facsimile: 310.393.4648
www.jfkessler.com
www.xlibris.com



--[3]------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 13:24:04 -0800
        From: Jascha Kessler <urim1 at verizon.net>
        Subject: Re: [Humanist] 24.524 further on Oedipus
        In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikgY031q2SFwd3LGUuTmKtWfjbjX21rKZENjLRF at mail.gmail.com>


PPS: Oh dear, I had meant to say, my mention of the OT was simply to suggest
that there as well, from earliest times, the sins of the father are visited
upon the sons unto the third generation at least.  It needs not Erinnyes of
later Greek lore, who are themselves female, perhaps Bacchantes, and
certainly servants of the Goddess[es].

On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Jascha Kessler <urim1 at verizon.net> wrote:

> More to Barbas' exposition.  Laius was condemned by the three great female
> deities for having "introduced pederasty to Greece." Trace the problem back
> to Chrysippus' mother, who was "married" to her father, who was himself
> condemned for that crime by the same Triad [excluding Zeus of the
> Apollonians].  He promised to relinquish her to the first man who could
> defeat him in a chariot race.  Theseus, I think it was, the 12th or 13th
> [this is ritual calendricals] to venture, bribed the grooms the night before
> to loosen the bindings of the chariot wheel of her incestuous father the
> King, who crashed and was dispatched by Theseus.  Cunning Greek, what?
>  [Which may go far back to the annual vegetation sacrifice of the king in
> the woods of Frazer] but has its analogues, today among certain African
> tribes, or one in particular, who place adolescent boy and girl in  trench,
> copulating face to face, and let a prepared tree fall to crush them to
> death.] The Sophoclean tale was surely not unknown to his audience.  If it
> is the subtext, it suggests of course that Oedipus is the fall guy, the
> patsy, not, as he says, put upon after having saved Thebes from the Sphinx.
>  As to that monster...it may be the case the Velikovsky ruminated over but
> did not dare to suggest.  How it got past Akhenaton and down a millennium
> and more is the mystery or puzzle or question.
> What follows from all that mythic mess of a family line of incestous
> insults to the Great Three is a skeptical view of the misprision perpetrated
> by contemporary Feminists who take up the heroic piety of Antigone in
> defending her brother's corpse.  From the perspective suggested above, her
> brothers were in the wrong to attempt the Ruler's overthrow, that of
> Jocasta's brother, called Creon [or Boss, let us say].  The whole subject
> may be a capsule presentation of the long and continuing struggle of
> patriarchal males against their Mothers, the goddesses who make us all safe
> for our first 9 months' refuge from this Real World.  Akenaton, so much the
> subject of praise for his solar god and especially by Art Historians and
> curators for the strange distortions of his image, so different from
> realistic portraiture, as though they were precursors of Picasso, which they
> were, but were not, seems to have been the Oedipus whose form was distorted
> by Morphan's Syndrome.  His father Amenhotep III, a great hunter of lions
> from the chariot, many dozens he boasted, took to wearing female dress in
> his later years.  Precursor of Laius?  And his powerful, long-lived wife Tiy
> took over, having sent the infant away to 20 years' exile with the Mitanni,
> took over from his mother and her ancient priest advisor [Tiresias?] and
> moved the whole shebang, taxes and temples and all, away from the ancientest
> city of kings and priests.  [Ancient Tieresis himself, fleeing from the
> attackers of Thebes later led by Oedipus' sons, died of a drink of
> freezingly cold water from a famous fountain.  Fountains are not
> administered by Apollonians, but nymphs under divine tutelage.  What does
> that legend really say?  And why does Tiresias refuse to divulge the truth
> when called back to Thebes?  He knows what went on decades earlier of course
> when that killing of Theseus's wife's father was made, rather
> ritualistically, as was mentioned above.
> At any rate, Oedipus is a good serious fellow.
> And further to Laius, Apollo's oracle is the Delfic priestess, the
> Pythonesse.  The Apollonians took that affair over, and that was a long
> struggle before then.  No wonder Laius is killed on the way back to hear a
> new fate: the goddesses dont forgive or forget.  They bring the blight of
> infertility that is announced completely in Scene I, when the priest,
> surrounded by children, the last generation of Thebes, makes his plea to
> Oedipus for help.  That Laius was a sinner against them is obvious: no
> children born after to him after he has his wife dispose of Oedipus...he
> dare not kill him...and yet from that mature woman Oedipus has delivered to
> him four children.  It is matriarchal, Thebes.  Oedipus, going away blinded,
> requests of Creon that he nurture his girls; as for the boys, he says they
> can take care of themselves.  True to form, they later assault
> Thebes...Apollonians all.
> Interesting, what?
> Jescha Kessler
>
> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Humanist Discussion Group <
> willard.mccarty at mccarty.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>                 Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 24, No. 524.
>>         Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
>>                       www.digitalhumanities.org/humanist
>>                Submit to: humanist at lists.digitalhumanities.org
>>
>>  [1]   From:    Gerda Elata-Alster <gerda at bgu.ac.il>
>>  (10)
>>        Subject: Re: [Humanist] 24.521 further on Oedipus
>>
>>  [2]   From:    "Helena Barbas" <hebarbas at fcsh.unl.pt>
>>  (26)
>>        Subject: RE: [Humanist] 24.521 further on Oedipus
>>
>>
>>
>> --[1]------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>        Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 14:20:12 +0200
>>        From: Gerda Elata-Alster <gerda at bgu.ac.il>
>>        Subject: Re: [Humanist] 24.521 further on Oedipus
>>
>> Dear Jascha Kessler,
>>
>> re: further on Oedipus
>>
>> I must have missed (by mistake erased) your earlier comment.
>>
>> If it's not too much trouble, could you please resend it.
>>
>> We then could perhaps engage in a conversation on the topic of  the 'use'
>> of
>> humanities for humankind.
>>
>> Gerda Elata-Alster, Ben Gurion University of the Negev
>>
>>
>>
>> --[2]------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>        Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 15:53:05 -0000
>>        From: "Helena Barbas" <hebarbas at fcsh.unl.pt>
>>        Subject: RE: [Humanist] 24.521 further on Oedipus
>>        In-Reply-To: <20101126094257.967BAB18E2 at woodward.joyent.us>
>>
>> Dear Jascha Kessler
>>
>> I've not translated Oedipus, but have been giving it in my classes for the
>> last 20 years (together with Aristotle), and each time find something new
>> (in both). The thing that has struck me this year is that Oedipus is
>> himself
>> the victim of his father's hubris; Laius is the first not to believe in
>> Apollo's oracle; he is the first to shed the family blood when piercing
>> Oedipus feet. Laius had other sins upon himself - against hospitality and
>> marriage (the abduction and raping of Chrysippus i.e.). You don't need to
>> invoke the Old Testament, the Greek working up of the Erinyes upon family
>> blood shedding would be enough - it started to make me much more sense
>> from
>> this perspective.
>>
>> Best of lucks to your book
>> Helena Barbas
>>
>> Helena Barbas (PhD)
>> Universidade Nova de Lisboa
>> Faculdade de Ciências Sociais e Humanas
>> Departamento de Estudos Portugueses
>>  (Bloco 1 - Gab.b)
>> Av. de Berna 26-C, 1069-061
>> Lisboa – Portugal
>> URL: http://www.helenabarbas.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List posts to: humanist at lists.digitalhumanities.org
>> List info and archives at at: http://digitalhumanities.org/humanist
>> Listmember interface at:
>> http://digitalhumanities.org/humanist/Restricted/listmember_interface.php
>> Subscribe at:
>> http://www.digitalhumanities.org/humanist/membership_form.php
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jascha Kessler
> Professor of English & Modern Literature, UCLA
> Telephone/Facsimile: 310.393.4648
> www.jfkessler.com
> www.xlibris.com
>
>
>

-- 
Jascha Kessler
Professor of English & Modern Literature, UCLA
Telephone/Facsimile: 310.393.4648
www.jfkessler.com
www.xlibris.com





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